News
11 August 2009 11:53
 Gays still afraid to come out - Maltese gay activist
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Patrick Attard is an outspoken Maltese gay activist who decided to excommunicate himself from the Catholic Church, an event which caught the attention of local media – needless to point out, that the conservative media shunned the event. In a candid interview with maltastar.com he speaks his mind on civil partnership, civil rights and Maltese conservatism.
Engineer Attard is the first openly Maltese gay to contest a local election. He has since not been involved in politics. However he remains as committed as ever to defend and extend gay rights.
An interview on PBS ‘reporter’ programme was only aired on the condition that the following day an interview with Mgr Gouder is screened. He feels that although there is a balance in the reporting of the different political parties. However, no such balance seems to exist between “Church's time-allocation and other secular and liberal views.”
“The Catholic Church in Malta is too powerful and it interferes too much in Maltese politics. Remember that before the MEP elections the Bishops sent a statement to tell voters to vote for those who say that marriage should only be only between a man and a woman,” explained Dr Attard.
According to Dr Attard there are from 15,000 to 30,000 gays, lesbians and bi-sexuals in Malta. However only 150 people, among them heterosexuals, attended the gay pride walk organised by the Malta Gay Rights Movement on the 19 July.
Dr Attard believes that homosexuals might end up “having problems at home or work should people see them on TV.” Yet, it is the disillusionment in the political system that seems to put off many gay people from such activities.
“They give up the hope that anything will change with their attendance considering that cohabitation rights have been promised by this current administration for over 10 years and very little has been done - and only thanks to the EU,” he said.
Dr. Ing. Patrick Attard and Lana Turner holding a photocopy of their Excommunication Declaration outside the Curia Office in Floriana.
Civil partnership and Civil Unions
Is it possible that after all gay people do not care about ‘gay rights’? “It might be possible that young gay people don't understand entirely why a civil partnership or gay marriage is so important and don't see the need for it,” Dr Attard told this e-newspaper. “Civil partnership gives you the right to stay by the bedside of your loved one when he needs it most. It gives you the visitation rights, the right for urgent family leave from work, the right to take medical-related decisions in case the other person is unable to do so, the right for bereavement leave when he/she dies and the right to organise a funeral.”
“These are all rights which no-one likes to think about and are taken for granted - but what happens if you are left out of the hospital ward because you are just a friend should a serious accident occurs?”
Dr Attard added: “Civil partnership and gay marriage is about spending the rest of your life with the loved one. It is not about the Institution of Marriage or to try and ridicule the Church's teaching but the Church remains the biggest obstacle. Remember that Prime Minister Lawrence Gonzi's uncle Mgr Gonzi was against the decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1973.”
Does the EU matter?
Malta has been part of the European Union for nearly a decade now, yet the Maltese government is as conservative as ever in resisting civil rights. However, does the EU matter? “Gay marriage or civil partnerships exist in a number of countries - Just like divorce obtained in other countries is recognised in Malta, what happens if a married gay-Spanish couple on holiday in Malta and one falls seriously ill? What rights will the other one have?”
“Considering that nothing will happen in the next four years, however, MEPs can help in that Maltese people can marry a same-sex partner abroad and get the rights recognised in Malta. MEPs should work on this,” Dr Attard said.
“The recent selection of Dr Simon Busuttil as EPP's coordinator in the European Parliament's Civil Liberties (LIBE) committee is probably not very good news considering he was the worst performing Maltese MEP on gay issues in the last 5 years. He always abstains or votes against the resolution or even worse tried to remove a resolution on homophobia from the agenda of the European Parliament in 2007,” Patrick Attard said.
Engineer Attard is the first openly Maltese gay to contest a local election. He has since not been involved in politics. However he remains as committed as ever to defend and extend gay rights.
An interview on PBS ‘reporter’ programme was only aired on the condition that the following day an interview with Mgr Gouder is screened. He feels that although there is a balance in the reporting of the different political parties. However, no such balance seems to exist between “Church's time-allocation and other secular and liberal views.”
“The Catholic Church in Malta is too powerful and it interferes too much in Maltese politics. Remember that before the MEP elections the Bishops sent a statement to tell voters to vote for those who say that marriage should only be only between a man and a woman,” explained Dr Attard.
According to Dr Attard there are from 15,000 to 30,000 gays, lesbians and bi-sexuals in Malta. However only 150 people, among them heterosexuals, attended the gay pride walk organised by the Malta Gay Rights Movement on the 19 July.
Dr Attard believes that homosexuals might end up “having problems at home or work should people see them on TV.” Yet, it is the disillusionment in the political system that seems to put off many gay people from such activities.
“They give up the hope that anything will change with their attendance considering that cohabitation rights have been promised by this current administration for over 10 years and very little has been done - and only thanks to the EU,” he said.
Dr. Ing. Patrick Attard and Lana Turner holding a photocopy of their Excommunication Declaration outside the Curia Office in Floriana.
Civil partnership and Civil Unions
Is it possible that after all gay people do not care about ‘gay rights’? “It might be possible that young gay people don't understand entirely why a civil partnership or gay marriage is so important and don't see the need for it,” Dr Attard told this e-newspaper. “Civil partnership gives you the right to stay by the bedside of your loved one when he needs it most. It gives you the visitation rights, the right for urgent family leave from work, the right to take medical-related decisions in case the other person is unable to do so, the right for bereavement leave when he/she dies and the right to organise a funeral.”
“These are all rights which no-one likes to think about and are taken for granted - but what happens if you are left out of the hospital ward because you are just a friend should a serious accident occurs?”
Dr Attard added: “Civil partnership and gay marriage is about spending the rest of your life with the loved one. It is not about the Institution of Marriage or to try and ridicule the Church's teaching but the Church remains the biggest obstacle. Remember that Prime Minister Lawrence Gonzi's uncle Mgr Gonzi was against the decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1973.”
Does the EU matter?
Malta has been part of the European Union for nearly a decade now, yet the Maltese government is as conservative as ever in resisting civil rights. However, does the EU matter? “Gay marriage or civil partnerships exist in a number of countries - Just like divorce obtained in other countries is recognised in Malta, what happens if a married gay-Spanish couple on holiday in Malta and one falls seriously ill? What rights will the other one have?”
“Considering that nothing will happen in the next four years, however, MEPs can help in that Maltese people can marry a same-sex partner abroad and get the rights recognised in Malta. MEPs should work on this,” Dr Attard said.
“The recent selection of Dr Simon Busuttil as EPP's coordinator in the European Parliament's Civil Liberties (LIBE) committee is probably not very good news considering he was the worst performing Maltese MEP on gay issues in the last 5 years. He always abstains or votes against the resolution or even worse tried to remove a resolution on homophobia from the agenda of the European Parliament in 2007,” Patrick Attard said.
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Comments
George Azzopardi - 01 July 2010 19:58
Malta Must allow Civil Partnership in line with most of the other countries in the european unions. The Catholic Church cannot carry on interfearing in Gay & Lesbians Legal Rights. Politics must NOT allow the church/Religion to rule MALTA. THE CHURCH MUST sort their own internal problems and STOP the clergy molesting UNDERAGE innocent children.
FTM - 23 December 2009 19:49
I am without opinion on matters such homosexual, bisexual etc but it is a world phenomenon not a Maltese or a certain country problem, women are in a minority. The present position is that there are already 100 millions women less than men in the world and the trend is continuing. The ratio of boys and girls that are being born is already 105 boys to 100 girls. At the last election in India in the locality of Jallopur young men 25 and 35 years went out in the streets shouting “give us women or we will not vote”. The cause is known. Indian women prefer to abort than giving birth to a girl
In some regions of India Punjab and the province of Haryana 128 boys are born compared with 100 girls The figures showing the difference between men and women in the Eastern region are as follows
China 40 900 000 less women than men, India 40 000 000, Pakistan, 4 900 000, Bangladesh 3 700 000,
MiddleEast except Turkey 3 200 000, Egypt 1 300 000,Afghanistan 900 000, Turkey 700 000
Algeria 200 000, Tunisia 100 000; the rest of Africa 8 400 000 less women than men. This difference is more evident within the poor families because they consider that when they grow up the young men will contribute more to the family. These families even spend more for the health of the boys hence the mortality rate of girls is higher.
If this trend continues one can imagine the result. Not to morrow but within a period of years.
Will there come a period when the women population becomes so low that the world population will cease to grow for lack of births. Not tomorrow but….
Cf. -: S&V. J. December 2009
Albert Spiteri - 16 August 2009 10:50
Mr. Grech, your two lines below are puerile and infantile. They constitute, at most, a declaration of absolute arrogance and hilarious ignorance.
john zammit - 15 August 2009 17:42
To M. Vella
Who is the depriving you of your rights:the Church is not the Government of these islands? However if you feel that you are being deprived of your rights as stipulated in the many international conventions endorse by the Governemt of Malta, you can seek redress in the Constituional Court.
albert spiteri - 15 August 2009 13:42
Mr. George Grech - strength of character? Do you honestly believe that most people have the time, the guts and the will to go out challenging church, society and established myopic tradition just to prove a point? We did that in the 60's and those before us did it also during the 30's.
But it was particular only to a period of time and a period in our personal development.
From my experience, which spans close to 7 decades, working class people (who happen to be the majority anywhere on earth) prefer not being sung martyrs or hailed heroes. They can only afford a life of anonimity and compromise with maybe a bit of relative happiness and satisfaction. That, Mr. Grech is the life burden of a working class.
albert spiteri - 15 August 2009 13:42
Mr. George Grech - strength of character? Do you honestly believe that most people have the time, the guts and the will to go out challenging church, society and established myopic tradition just to prove a point? We did that in the 60's and those before us did it also during the 30's.
But it was particular only to a period of time and a period in our personal development.
From my experience, which spans close to 7 decades, working class people (who happen to be the majority anywhere on earth) prefer not being sung martyrs or hailed heroes. They can only afford a life of anonimity and compromise with maybe a bit of relative happiness and satisfaction. That, Mr. Grech is the life burden of a working class.
George Grech - 15 August 2009 09:51
This is all a lot of bull. I came out 32 years ago when the situation was really much more difficult and there's no need for pomposity just strength of character.
Albert Spiteri - 14 August 2009 16:39
Mr. Joseph Zammit, I agree, this is not the right place for such a debate. But I still thank you for bothering to answer my post.
Still, I would like to refer you to my point no. 2. There I said "Skeptics would have us believe that Leo X (definitely one of the most corrupt, morally bankrupt popes the Catholic Church has inflicted on the world)...". That clearly shows my opinion of Leo X and it also indicates that I do realize and accept that there were more than just one "corrupt and morally bankrupt popes". I also realize that the catholic church does not exactly represent Jesus's teaching, especially in its interaction when it comes to relationship between the Church of Christ and homosexuals. I also do not share Benedict's stand on homosexuals and enjoyed reading The Times (London) of 08/04/09 on what Tony Blair had to say to Benedict about the Church's official stand on homosexuality.
You certainly know that an organization like the Catholic Church cannot, even though it often is, be judged by the behaviour of its bishops, archbishops or popes.
The Church of Christ, in spite of all the human failings it suffered and still suffers of, remains the one and only church that learns from its own bitter experience and humbly adjourns accordingly.
I am not an avid churchgoer. I suffered at the hands of arrogant clergy during the sixties just as much as any of us who would not accept eclesiastical prepotence and dictat.
Nevertheless I have still to be persuaded that my position as outlined in my first post here is not correct and that is : “..all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.” [2 Thessalonians 2:12]. All of course meaning homosexuals, heterosexuals, males and females, young and old, blacks, whites, reds and yellows. All will be condemned who have not believed the truth and have delighted in wickedness. I think that is supremely fair and just.
Albert Spiteri - 14 August 2009 16:06
Mr. Joseph Zammit, I agree, this is not the right place for such a debate. But I still thank you for bothering to answer my post.
Still, I would like to refer you to my point no. 2. There I said "Skeptics would have us believe that Leo X (definitely one of the most corrupt, morally bankrupt popes the Catholic Church has inflicted on the world)...". That clearly shows my opinion of Leo X and it also indicates that I do realize and accept that there were more than just one "corrupt and morally bankrupt popes". I also realize that the catholic church does not exactly represent Jesus's teaching, especially in its interaction when it comes to relationship between the Church of Christ and homosexuals. I also do not share Benedict's stand on homosexuals and enjoyed reading The Times (London) of 08/04/09 on what Tony Blair had to say to Benedict about the Church's official stand on homosexuality.
You certainly know that an organization like the Catholic Church cannot, even though it often is, be judged by the behaviour of its bishops, archbishops or popes.
The Church of Christ, in spite of all the human failings it suffered and still suffers of, remains the one and only church that learns from its own bitter experience and humbly adjourns accordingly.
I am not an avid churchgoer. I suffered at the hands of arrogant clergy during the sixties just as much as any of us who would not accept eclesiastical prepotence and dictat.
Nevertheless I have still to be persuaded that my position as outlined in my first post here is not correct and that is : “..all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.” [2 Thessalonians 2:12]. All of course meaning homosexuals, heterosexuals, males and females, young and old, blacks, whites, reds and yellows. All will be condemned who have not believed the truth and have delighted in wickedness. I think that is supremely fair and just.
joseph zammit - 14 August 2009 13:10
To answer Albert Spiteri, surely here is not the right place (due to limited space) to answer and correct apologetics-however this should suffice:
On 11 March 1513, Giovanni was elected pope and assumed the name of Leo X. He had not yet been ordained a priest, but this defect was remedied on 15 March at a Vatican celebration for the anniversary of the death of Divine Julius (Julius Caesar) (Encyclopaedia Britannica, 3rd ed., Edinburgh, 1788-97, vol. ix). If another quote by another Pope is needed, here is another one:
In the summer of 1508, Pope Julius II summoned Raphael (1483-1529) to Rome, and around the same time commissioned Michelangelo (1474-1564) to create an array of works for the Vatican. Michelangelo subsequently carved a marble statue of him, and Julius II examined it with a puzzled expression, asking,
"What is that under my arm?"
"A Bible, your Holiness," replied Michelangelo.
"What do I know of Bibles?" roared the Pope; "I am a warlord; give me a sword instead"
(Storia d'Italia, op. cit.; quoted in A History of the Popes, ibid.).
His preference for a sword over a Bible had its effect in Rome and he became known as "Pope Dreadful" and "Pope Terror" (ibid.).
Back to Leo X--It is almost enough to say that apologists who make pretence of defending Alexander VI and Julius II abandon Leo X to the critical wolves. He satisfied only those "who looked upon the Papal Court as a centre of amusement" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Pecci ed., 1897, iii, p. 227). The belief that Leo began to indulge in unnatural vice after he became pope was so seriously held in Rome that the two leading historians of his time recorded the information.
God has given me the papacy, now let me enjoy it"
(Encyclopaedia Britannica, 13th ed., xix, pp. 926-7).
It was Pope Leo X who made the most infamous and damaging statement about Christianity in the history of the Church. His declaration revealed to the world papal knowledge of the Vatican's false presentation of Jesus Christ and unashamedly exposed the puerile nature of the Christian religion. At a lavish Good Friday banquet in the Vatican in 1514, and in the company of "seven intimates" (Annales Ecclesiastici, Caesar Baronius, Folio Antwerp, 1597, tome 14), Leo made an amazing announcement that the Church has since tried hard to invalidate.
Raising a chalice of wine into the air, Pope Leo toasted:
"How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has been for us and our predecessors."
The pope's pronouncement is recorded in the diaries and records of both Pietro Cardinal Bembo (Letters and Comments on Pope Leo X, 1842 reprint) and Paolo Cardinal Giovio (De Vita Leonis Decimi..., op. cit.), two associates who were witnesses to it.
Cardinal Baronius, who turned down two offers to become pope in 1605, added the following comments about Pope Leo's declaration:
"The Pontiff has been accused of atheism, for he denied God and called Christ, in front of cardinals Pietro Bembo, Jovius and Iacopo Sadoleto and other intimates, 'a fable' ... it must be corrected".
(Annales Ecclesiastici, op. cit., tomes viii and xi)
THERE IS NO RELIGION HIGHER THAN TRUTH.
M Vella - 13 August 2009 21:17
To all those defending the church, I have no interest in the church except the freedom of those who wish to follow it. Go ahead and best wishes with your beliefs.
In the meantime can I please have my rights since I pay my taxes like any church-goer instead of funding the benefits of everybody else. Thank you.
Albert Spiteri - 13 August 2009 13:25
What Joseph Zammit quotes from Leo X merits commenting upon.
(1) To begin with, it's not as though some offhand comment by a single Pope is enough to overturn 1500-2000 years of relevant secular and religious scholarship.
(2) Skeptics would have us believe that Leo X (definitely one of the most corrupt, morally bankrupt popes the Catholic Church has inflicted on the world) had perhaps committed a serious gaffe, in which he admitted what was otherwise hidden for nearly 1500 years, namely, that Christ never actually existed.
(3) The overwhelming majority of web sites who use the quote provide only the quote and attribution, and nothing else. No context, no citation. In other words, they pass it around uncritically.
(4) It appears only two sites offer any sort of context. One claims the quote was made in the presence of one of Leo's staffers, Pietro Bembo. Another (written by Revilo P. Oliver) says that the quote was made in the presence of "intimates." Neither provides a citation or a source for this information.
(4) A small number of sites do give a citation which looks like this: (Encyc. Brit., 14th Ed. xix, pg. 217).
No one however actually picked up a 14th ed. of Britannica and found this quote. Britannica's 14th edition was printed from 1929-1973. The 14th edition. Vol. 19, where this quote is supposed to be, doesn't even contain the article on Leo X. Furthermore, Britannica does not know about this quote at all.
(5) It was a certain John Bale (1495-1563) who first came out with this Leo X quote. Bale was an Englishman who had joined the Carmelites and was educated at Cambridge. He abandoned the order by 1535 and enjoyed the protection and patronage of leading pro-Protestant factions in the court of Henry VIII. During this time he wrote a number of plays and several tracts that attacked the papacy. This is confirmed by The Complete Plays of John Bale (ed. Peter Happe), who notes that Bale in his plays "introduced a variety of matter to satirise the Roman Church and parody its rites and customs." Bale presents the Leo X quote in an extremely anti-catholic satire without the comfort of any historical proof at all.
(6) So, based on the data, as far as I'm concerned, anyone using this quote is perpetuating error.
Skeptics should answer the following questions providing documentation for their replies and not allowing Bale as a source. The questions are:
(i) When did Leo make this statement (the year is enough)?
(ii) To whom did Leo make it, and who heard it?
(iii) What was the context that prompted Leo to make this statement?
(iv) In what document did those who heard it, report it?
(v) What reaction, if any, was there to this statement?
(vi) In what contemporary works is all of this reported?
(vii) Based on the above, show what in context the "fable" Leo refers to -- the entire existence of a man named Jesus? Not his existence, but just certain events? Etc.
PMG - 12 August 2009 15:24
Good for him. We all have different opinions, but this type of news should not influence people who don't think likewise.
Josephine Gaffiero - 12 August 2009 15:07
So the best defence of the Catholic Church is that they are not as bad as the muslims?
How about trying to match the highest standards of human treatment of others, rather than the lowest common denominator?
John Zammit - 12 August 2009 08:15
I cannot understand why all this antagonism against the Catholic Chruch; no one seems to bother how practising homosexuals are treated by other religions. Just to give one example homosexuals are still condemed to death by stoning in muslim countries. A few years back I had occsions to watch such an event on television and I can assure everyone that it terrible,cruel and degrading to human dignity. All that the Church says is that all sexual activity is right if it takes place within the marriage bond. Thus a practising homosexual and a promiscuious hetrosexual are on the same level for the Church. But let us leave all religious matters apart; homsexuals are still not prepared to show their sexual orientation because they know and feel that they do not belong to the mainstream of society.
Josephine Gaffiero - 12 August 2009 02:21
I - 11 August 2009 16:30, "Did the Roman Catholic Church ever excommunicate their pedophiles in their ranks?"
Good question! The answer is mostly NO, the Church (directed by the Pope, especially Jean Paul II) just moved the offending priests to some far away location. The priests weren't even defrocked. The top priority was the reputation of the Church, and the lowest priority was the rights of the abused children.
For the same Church to condemn homosexuality and forbid priests to marry is sheer hypocrisy.
Sebastian Melmoth - 12 August 2009 00:22
As the Labour Party's online paper, does this article imply that the PL is in favour of gay marriage?
Julia - 11 August 2009 19:20
Grow up Malta and learn from us europeans, its not the pre-war years this is 2009/10 for god sake there are other issues that concerns us most then telling peoople what to do and not to do. After all when one dies, nobody is going to volunteer to depart this world in their place. Unless some bright spark got a better answer..Yes?
joseph zammit - 11 August 2009 18:49
Congrats to Dr. Ing. Patrick Attard and Lana Turner! I did something similar (resigned from the Church) about 25 years ago without any Fanfare.
Neither the Church nor the Bible is Divine--they are a means to bind people into spiritual slavery. Of course, my belief!
Pope Leo X said--"What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!"---wakey wakey!!!
I - 11 August 2009 16:30
Did the Roman Catholic Church ever excommunicate their pedophiles in their ranks?
David Bezzina - 11 August 2009 15:42
The Church has always the same aim,and that is to impose it's own beliefs to the Maltese.
Fortunately,the Maltese people are not as gullible as they were some few decades ago where it practically spoon fed people what is right and what is wrong.
It is about time that civil liberties like divorce and gay marriages are available whatever the Church's opinion is.
There is nothing wrong with being gay and the Church must accept it in order to become relevant.
We are living in 2009 not in the 1950's for crying out loud.
The Flying Dutchman - 11 August 2009 13:51
Just a few words from the Netherlands:- LIVE & LET LIVE
M Scerri - 11 August 2009 13:40
Of course they do not come out ... they dont because there are people on the Internet who I shall not mention by name who made a big issue out of attenting to the gay parade in Valletta.
Such people are a disgrace to our country and the party which this particular individual represents through her writing.
Al - 11 August 2009 13:07
@Albert Spiteri
this is not the position of the catholic church.
Our God is a God of love! He became aperson because he loves everyone and wants that every person to be saved.
Albert Spiteri - 11 August 2009 12:40
God condemns everyone – regardless of sexual orientation, gender orientation, racial characteristics, culture and subculture, and so on – who reject God’s Holiness because they prefer the ugliness of sin. The Bible says that “..all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.” [2 Thessalonians 2:12].
So we can safely say that God condemns Gay people who enjoy being evil. They will be cast into the fire along with their straight fellows, at the Judgment.
Jude 7 records that Sodom and Gomorrah "acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust." Ezekiel says that Sodom committed "abominable things" (Ezek. 16:50), which could refer to homosexual and heterosexual acts of sin. Lot even offered his two virgin daughters in place of his guests, but the men of Sodom rejected the offer, preferring homosexual sex over heterosexual sex (Gen. 19:8–9). Ezekiel does allude to a lack of hospitality in saying that Sodom "did not aid the poor and needy" (Ezek. 16:49). So homosexual acts and a lack of hospitality both contributed to the destruction of Sodom, with the former being the far greater sin, the "abominable thing" that set off God’s wrath.
But the Sodom incident is not the only time the Old Testament deals with homosexuality. An explicit condemnation is found in the book of Leviticus: "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. . . . If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them" (Lev. 18:22, 20:13).
So, in my opinion, the response of those straight Christians who witness God’s Spirit within Gay Christians should be the same as those Jewish Christians who witnessed it within Gentile Christians 2,000 years ago.
So what does this mean for Gay Christians who still feel or fear being condemned?
The answer is that 2,000 years ago, many Gentile Christians feared that unless they stopped being Gentiles, and instead became Jews, they could not be saved. That’s what they had been taught, and that was the message they had internalized. But one thing was certain: The intensity of their fear had nothing to do with the reality of God’s truth!
Gay Christians today often act based on fears, just as the early Gentile Christians did.
Joseph Vella - 11 August 2009 12:28
Unless Malta's main progressive movement (PL) is in government there is no hope of equal treatment towards the LGBT community. The church has all right (and duty) to sound its views, but the Government is responsible to ensure fair treatment with everyone. The present Conservative (PN) government has even excluded protection against homophobia from NCPE (National Commission for the Promotion of Equality).
The LGBT community has now direct representation (through LGBT Labour) in the Labour Party. Now that's real democracy and fair treatment and NOT pre-election gimmicks
r j - 11 August 2009 12:06
@ AL - Spare me 'the church loves homosexuals speech'. That it is not love but pity - same pity when you think of handicaps. The church concept of homosexuals is of a disturbed people, who need to be loved because they are 'not normal'.
If you accept them as 'normal' then you got to accept a homosexual relationship - and yes a relationship usually also entails sexual intercourse.
btw - if the church does not accept marriages between ppl of the same sex and sees sex outside marriage and downright sinful - then what are suppose homosexuals do? stare at each other?
isn't that a wee bit sadisdic from the church?
but then again ... here we are - pointing our finger at the church, which quite frankly can think and say whatever it likes. Personally, it is the state which is guilty - because it is meant to be above the silly nilly of any religuos institution!
H Dempster - 11 August 2009 12:01
This only a show and nothing else. one does not need to excomunicate oneself to prove that he is gay. If he wish to be Gay , so be it and forget the show.
Al - 11 August 2009 11:24
@r j
The churchdoes not condemn homosexuals but the homosexual act. The church loves homosexuals because they too are their children. But since the church does not recognise marriage between two men or two women, it is impossible to accept their sexual relationship. Church teaches against sex outside of marriage.
r j - 11 August 2009 10:54
@ AL - I can't understand how the church, which preaches 'love and peace' can see homosexuals as being some degenrate form of humanity.
it would be lovely to 'do whatever you want' - however, the church has in the PN its political wings which keeps denying simple civil rights such as civil partership. Moreover, you have politicians such as simon busuttil, who keep on voting against gay rights.
Personally, I admire people like patrick who have the guts to fight for the rights of his community.
Al - 11 August 2009 10:28
I can't understand how a person that believe in democracy protests against the fact that the church explains their views to the faithful. It is simple. Those who don't believe in Christ and in the church can do whatever they want. But it is the church's duty to tell the faithful what is the official cathecism. Politicians do the same and all leaders do the same.
Manuel - 11 August 2009 09:31
Powerful Church in Malta !!. Yes, as long as the people let themselves be pulled by ecclesiastical strings. Ufortunately the majority still think that the Church has the magic wand that leads anyone to Heaven !!. It is interesting to quote some wise thoughts from open minded individuals:
"The seabed of Catholicism is the school"- Michael Burleigh.
"Religion is a tool used by the Ruling class to subjugate the underclass". -Michael Burleigh.
"The Church is part of the Stae. The State is NOT part of the Church'.- Camus.
'The Pope was equivalent to 20,000 troops on a battlefield". - Napoleon Bonaparte.
"Man is born free: everywhere he is in chains".-Rousseau.
"Posterity is to the philosopher what the next world is to the religious man'.- Diderot.
"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet".- Napoleon Bonaparte.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true; by the wise as false; and by the rulers as useful".- Seneca the Younger.
"There is in every village a torch (the teacher) and an extinquisher (the clergyman)".- Victor Hugo.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities".- Voltaire.
"Many people would sooner die than think. In fact they do".- Bertrand Russell.
"The religion of one age is the literary entertainment of the next".- Ralph Waldo Emerson.
"Truth has never been. and can never be, contained in any one creed or system".- Mary Ward.
I think the above is more than enough to make everyone beware of falsehood. I appeal to the Maltese people to read, read and read to open their minds and not let others impress them with archaic hellish rubbish.